SDG 13: Climate Action

Professor Carolyn Evans

Universities play a critical role in supporting and addressing the UN Sustainable Development Goals. A key aspect of this role is fostering understanding and engagement with the goals. This video will discuss Sustainable Development Goal number 13 Climate Action with Dr Johanna Nalau and Professor Christopher Fleming. Johanna is an adaptation scientist in the Cities Research Institute at Griffith University, an Australian Research Council DECRA Fellow, and the science committee, co-chair of the World Adaptation Science Program at the United Nations. Professor Christopher Fleming is Director of Griffith Institute for Tourism, and Head of Research (Future Climate Transitions) for our Climate Action Beacon. So welcome Johanna and Chris. Thank you for joining us today. We’re talking about sustainable development goal number 13. Do you want to start by giving us a bit of an overview of what this goal is all about?

Dr Johanna Nalau

Yeah, sure. So Sustainable Development Goal 13 is about reducing our emissions, but also thinking about how we can adapt to the impacts of climate change. But it is also an opportunity to think differently. To scale innovation at global but also local scale and how we plan and build our communities.

Professor Carolyn Evans

And it’s also got some things about education in there, too, doesn’t it?

Dr Johanna Nalau

It definitely has. So it is about us being able to teach a different way of thinking across all professions. You know, really put the sustainability and climate action at the core in what we do. And that means, you know, whether it’s policy environments, education in schools, education at universities, as well.

Professor Carolyn Evans

And Chris, the focus on this goal is on action. It’s not just sort of about observing or researching or those sorts of things, but actually taking action. Why is that important?

Professor Christopher Fleming

Well, I think we’re definitely at the point now, where we’re action is needed. And I think it’s action on two fronts, both mitigation i.e.: reducing emissions, and hopefully reducing the impact of climate change in the years ahead. But also, realising that there’s some climate change built into the system now and so we need to prepare to adapt.

Professor Carolyn Evans

And what’s the first priority for you if Sustainable Development Goal 13 was in your hands, what would you be saying is most important?

Professor Christopher Fleming

Well, I guess as an economist by training, my first answer to that would be to put a price on carbon. I think that’s the first, second and third best policy in terms of reducing emissions. But what I would say is, one policy won’t solve this. We need to have a suite of policies and really aggressively pursue emissions reduction.

Professor Carolyn Evans

So you set a price on carbon is the first and biggest tool. And that’s not necessarily easy in a policy sense anyway. What are some of the other things you’d like to see in that suite of policy responses?

Professor Christopher Fleming

I think the obvious ones would be to stop subsidising industries that are polluting unnecessarily. I think the message is we’ve actually got the technology, there or there abouts, let’s put some incentives in place to encourage people to do more R & D in that space, but also have consumers uptake those technologies as they become available.

Professor Carolyn Evans

So some disincentives in terms of price on carbon and some incentives to get these new technologies.

Professor Christopher Fleming

Yes. And the beauty is you can use the revenue from the price on carbon to find the incentive, so ends up becoming cost neutral from a budget point of view.

Professor Carolyn Evans

In the meantime Johanna, we would all like to see these policy settings in place. What do we need to be thinking about in the way that we approach these issues?

Dr Johanna Nalau

I would add to Chris’s comments that we need the policy actions. But as an adaptation scientist, I think we really need a shift in mindset. In how we think,  how we plan, really thinking about preparedness and innovation as well. So how can we prepare better? And that’s one of the really key messages that comes when we think about adaptation, which I think makes me positive is that we do you have the capacity to harness innovation to harness new technologies and to learn from each other, then that’s what the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change also does. It does support both developed and developing countries to create a new mindset. Historically, countries thought that we had this under control. And we’re seeing more and more impacts of climate change. We’re seeing increased temperatures, extreme storms, and we know that we already have those changes locked in, and some of them are already here. So adaptation is really necessary across all societies or communities, it’s really a reality that we need to start thinking about.

Professor Carolyn Evans

So we’re going to have to adapt, and we’re going to have to take action to limit climate change, they go hand in hand.

Dr Johanna Nalau

I think that’s what goal setting is about, just like Chris said, it’s about reducing emissions and adapting to climate change impacts, you know, they go together. So there’s a lot of times people tries to separate them, but you can’t have them without the other. And you can have SDG 13 without the other goals either.

Professor Carolyn Evans

Now, the Sustainable Development Goals are of course, global, every local government and state government and the national government of Australia day to take some responsibilities, but we can also look on a global scale for examples of both good and less good practice. Chris, when you thinking about policy, and you look around the world, are there countries or regions that seem to at least be heading in the right direction?

Professor Christopher Fleming

Look, I think Europe, unsurprisingly is further ahead than we are in Australia. And there’s some really encouraging policies and actions happening throughout Europe, and that those actions and policies seem to be increasing in terms of their strength and their popularity. But I would say I don’t think any major country has sufficient policies or sufficient outcomes in terms of reduced emissions, to be meeting the kind of targets we need to meet. So we’ve all got more work to do.

Professor Carolyn Evans

And Johanna, I know, you’ve been looking perhaps a little closer to home at some of the Pacific countries and what we might learn from them about adaptation to talk a little bit about that?

Dr Johanna Nalau

Interestingly, although the big, big countries are still trying to make commitments, on emissions and on climate change, but Pacific islands in particular have really taken small island developing states have really taken a leadership role. And they are showing in a small scale, they can innovate, they’ve so some of the countries already don’t use fossil fuels at all. And they are really developing plans for adaptation and disaster risk reduction – so how they can prepare better for extreme storms and long-term trends like increased drought. So they are doing really innovative things across the islands already and I think Australia and other countries have a lot to learn from them.

Professor Carolyn Evans

And that example shows up some of the inequities in this field, doesn’t it? Because it’s often the countries that suffering most immediately and the most severely are not the countries that are responsible for the most carbon. Are there ways we should be thinking about those inequities, too, when we think about Sustainable Goal 13?

Dr Johanna Nalau

Of the key things comes through, for instance, for development aid, also climate finance. So the Paris Agreement for it’s quite an ambitious goal for all the developed countries to increase accessibility. But also there are a number of climate finances available for developing countries and that target hasn’t been met yet. So I think there’s a lot we can do, but also how we integrate, for instance, adaptation, disaster risk reduction to the way that we deliver development aid.

Professor Christopher Fleming

One of the really challenging things about climate policy is that the costs would be borne by the current rich because they’re the heavy emitters. And a lot of the benefits would be bestowed on the future poor. Because obviously, climate change is going to be more of a problem in the future, and the poor are less able to respond. So trying to sell a policy, either nationally or globally, that costs the current rich to benefit the future poor is a tough sell. Because I think you could probably argue, a lot of our policies are designed to benefit the current rich, and then the ones making the decisions.

Professor Carolyn Evans

As far as it shows the way the Sustainable Development Goals are all interrelated as well, because we can’t just see climate action in isolation from inequalities and wealth in education and access to resources and all those sorts of things as well. And is this why we struggle in a country like Australia with things like putting a price on carbon? What why has that been?

Professor Christopher Fleming

Well, it’s been difficult because we are a resource dependent nation, we, you know, we do have generated a lot of wealth out of fossil fuel. You know, people want to look after their jobs and livelihoods, and that and that’s understandable. I also think talking to the education piece, that’s part of Goal 13, is we haven’t had a very intelligent public debate about what a carbon price would look like, what it would mean, and what the alternatives are in terms of future outcomes if we don’t reduce our emissions. So I think the public debate needs to be more educated and nuanced than it’s been to date.

Dr Johanna Nalau

Every profession, every sector, needs to stop thinking and preparing for the impacts of climate change. So there has been a lot of investment in adaptation science in Australia, but I think the really the move needs to be how can we implement that knowledge? And especially we don’t have yet a set national policy on adaptation, which is a requirement of the Paris Agreement. So I would say that, especially in the aftermath of fires, and now COVID, I think we really need a strong national adaptation policy.

Professor Carolyn Evans

So there’s a lot to be worried about in this area. We talk a lot about the costs of taking action, perhaps we don’t talk as much about the costs of not taking action. I wonder if that needs to be part of the intelligent national debate you were talking about Chris?

Professor Christopher Fleming

Almost certainly. And if we look at the big reviews, so the Stern Review in the UK, and then the Garnaut Review here, which were essentially great big benefit cost analyses of climate action. Both concluded really clearly that the cost of reducing emissions now and the benefits you received from that in terms of avoided climate change, far outweigh any costs of action. And so it past passes a benefit cost test really easily. The cost of inaction, massive, or unknown. There’s no question and I think among economists that action early, and now makes sense from an economic point of view.

Professor Carolyn Evans

Well, actually now it’s possible query of action early actually still is possible. Economists have been saying this for a while. But I’ll paint it for people because I think people can see clearly, job losses in a coal mining town, for example, I’d say a real losses, real people, quite immediate. What are the sort of losses that economists are thinking about? Emitting – some of them might be unknown, but what are some of the known unknowns?

Professor Christopher Fleming

Well, I guess the obvious one is natural disasters, and the insurance industry seeing that already that some areas are becoming very difficult to insure. Wearing my tourism hat, I would say, loss of natural assets like the Great Barrier Reef would be a massive cost for the Queensland economy in terms of visitor spend, and so forth. So it’s really that that impact on nature through and end-built infrastructure through natural disasters. You know, replacing infrastructure after a cyclone or a bushfire or a flood is incredibly expensive. And as I said, the insurance industry is already seeing.

Professor Carolyn Evans

And we were filming this here in the Gold Coast, where the natural beauty and the coastline is, of course, a critical part underpinning a lot of jobs here. And it’s one of the reasons that Griffith has been very involved in things like coastal erosion, partly because it’s important environmentally, but it’s also incredibly important economically and to lots of jobs around Australia, which perhaps isn’t always understood.

Professor Christopher Fleming

And sea level rise, I guess, is the other question where we have to start having some, some uncomfortable conversations around what the coastline looks like in the future. And what adaptation steps we’re prepared to take? Are we defending? Or are we retreating, or probably a mix of the two depending on which location you’re talking about? But Australia has an awful amount of high value infrastructure right on the coast at, you know, relatively low levels. So it’s a conversation we need to start having?

Professor Carolyn Evans

And what sort of conversation are adaptation scientists having about that, at the moment Johanna? What we see if we think about the fact Australia is a very coastal country, but that’s true for many places, and of course, the Pacific, which you’ve referred to previously. So how should we be thinking about those issues of potentially rising sea levels?

Dr Johanna Nalau

I know that there’s been a few cases where the state government actually has said, we know that this area is highly flood prone, we are not going to put a new settlement there. So it is about becoming smarter. And for instance, on the Gold Coast, there are particular stretches and parks that are there for people to enjoy, but they also act as a flood buffer. And that’s because the council has really looked at the planning and think about, well, the water needs somewhere to go. And back to the Chris’s point on the insurance. I think it is very different thing if your basement floods once a year. But once it starts flooding four or five times a year, you know, they question insurance and who has support and you know how we can help the communities to actually take some of those actions.

Professor Carolyn Evans

Well, there are parts of Australia becoming uninsurable at the moment. And that, again, is a real cost borne by individuals in those communities. So we’ve, we’ve talked about some of the things that make us worried and concerned and there are plenty of those and some of the actions we’d like to take, like to finish off by thinking about what might make us feel optimistic? Are there good examples? Are there things that that help you to still feel this is a field that’s worth engaging with it?

Dr Johanna Nalau

I am actually a bit more optimistic. You know, there’s so many case examples and communities who are kind of taking action and thinking about adaptation, having conversations. But also, as I said, city governments looking at how they are planning for disasters, but also thinking about, you know, having a water, there’s lots of examples from different economic sectors where people have switched livelihoods. And I think as an educator, I see that there’s a lot we can do to start shifting the mindsets, the way that people think about sustainability, about climate change, and what we can actually do.

Professor Christopher Fleming

Okay, I’ve got a couple of points of optimism. The first is around technology and the growth we’re seeing in electric cars, electric planes, renewable energy, and the cost that those technologies are improving all the time at a rapid rate. The costs are coming down really, really quickly. So there’s definitely some room for being positive about that. The other area, I think, is to do with the private sector. I think the private sector are getting it in a way that perhaps our policymakers aren’t. I’ve taught for over a decade now in our MBA program and if I went back a decade and then the conversations I was having with, with the MBA students, which are largely, you know, executives or managers with an organization’s 10 years ago, they were asking me, should we take action? Do we need to take action? What will our customers think? What will their shareholders think? Fast forward to today. The conversation is now we know we need to take action. What is the best way to do that? So the conversation has changed dramatically in the last decade, I think that’s coming out of the private sector.

Professor Carolyn Evans

That’s great. Great cause for optimism, local communities, private sector, people working on technology and of course at a university we do have to say also a generation of young people who I think are coming at these issues from a very different perspective to perhaps some of the generations that come before them. Thank you both very much for your time today discussing sustainable develop goal number 13.