In Conversation with Grace Tame

Emeritus Professor Julianne Schultz, Professor in Media and Culture, Griffith University 

Good evening, everyone.  I’m so pleased that so many of you have been able to come out tonight to the Gold Coast, Home of the Arts.  Until the lockdown, we had the theatre completely booked out but sadly, as the virus is still sneaking around, we have a little more space in the theatre this evening than we had intended to. I hope you’re comfortable and able to enjoy it.  Thank you for making the effort to be here in person, or online, for what I am sure will be an inspiring and revealing conversation.  My name is Julianne Schultz, I’m the publisher of Griffith Review and the Chair of The Conversation and have been working on this series A Better Future for All since it began last year.  

 I’m standing in this evening for Griffith University Vice Chancellor Carolyn Evans who sends her apologies.  She’s unfortunately in lockdown in Brisbane.  As you know, this series of conversations is co‑hosted by the university and by HOTA.  As we start, I respectfully acknowledge the Kombumerri and Yugambeh people and the traditional custodians of these lands and pay my respect to their elders past, present and future, and to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples here today. I would also like to acknowledge our special guest, 2021 Australian of the Year Ms Grace Tame, councillors of the City of the Gold Coast, Mr Mark Hammel and Mr William Owen‑Jones, Chair of the HOTA Board of Directors Professor Emeritus Ned Pankhurst and many other distinguished guests who are joining us online rather than in person as they had hoped to do. As always, Kerry O’Brien will be leading the conversation. This time with the brilliant Grace Tame.  Kerry’s skill as an interviewer and his empathy as a human being will, I am sure, mean we all go away from this discussion this evening wiser than we arrived.   

 When Grace was announced as Australian of the Year in January this year, I know I was not alone in being both thrilled, but also a little bit concerned about the burden of the role.  It turns out that my concern was misplaced.  Grace Tame has quickly demonstrated that she is one of the nation’s bravest and most inspiring young women.  Indeed, her leadership and example has set alight a long smouldering issue in this country ‑ sexual abuse and particularly the treatment of women and girls.  It is only March, and she has already inspired many and provoked an urgent national conversation which shows signs of forcing long overdue changes.   

 Grace, is, as you know, an abuse survivor, one who has channelled her rage and extraordinary energy into becoming an outspoken advocate for other survivors, particularly those who were abused as children.  Grace first came to national attention in 2019 when she won local and international support to change the way the law in Tasmania silenced victims of sexual assault.  Grace was assisted by journalist and advocate Nina Funnell and her Let Her Speak campaign to overturn Tasmania’s so‑called gag law which made it illegal for sexual assault survivors to speak publicly about their experiences.  The law changed in her state in April last year.  And similar changes have since been made in Queensland.   

Grace has shown courage, wisdom and strength and grace ‑ her parents must have known something when they chose her name ‑ with a depth beyond that which could be expected of most 26‑year‑olds.  She’s one of a brilliant generation of young women who are already making a difference here and around the world.  A few days before Grace was appointed Australian of the Year, Amanda Gorman captivated the world with her poem The Hill We Climb at the inauguration of President Joe Biden.  Her unflinching assessment of her country’s problems but hope for the future was inspiring.  We have since seen other young women take courage and follow Grace’s example.  Griffith graduate Brittany Higgins has already done more to change the culture of Parliament House than an army of consultants, and Chanel Contos has made another long simmering issue urgent for schools, teachers, students and parents all around the country.  These women are standing on the shoulders of giants but the leaps they are taking promise to be truly transformative.  We are so grateful Grace is able to join us here tonight on the Gold Coast despite the lockdowns and border closures and all the other restrictions that we’ve learnt to live with over the past year.  Like you, I am looking forward to hearing what she has to say tonight.  Before I begin, may I take a moment also to acknowledge Griffith’s longstanding research and teaching in the field of violence prevention and education.  Our Violence Research and Prevention Program delivers cutting‑edge research about the causes and consequences of violence, and best‑practice approaches to understanding, controlling and preventing it.  One of its most successful initiatives is a specialised violence prevention training program, the Motivating Action Through Empowerment, better known by the MATE Bystander program.  Under the direction of Shaan Ross‑Smith and Professor Patrick O’Leary, MATE Bystander aims to raise awareness about the ways all sorts of abusive behaviours are embedded in our culture and crucially to change the root attitudes and beliefs that normalise these behaviours.  This includes racism, discrimination and bullying, as well as sexual harassment and assault.  Importantly, the program is designed to help participants become proactive, not passive, bystanders.  We use it at Griffith for our staff and students and also provide training programs for other organisations.  Given the current debate and the heart‑wrenching stories that we are hearing daily this work is more important than ever.  Finally, before we continue, one last acknowledgment: we recognise that some of tonight’s discussion may be challenging, confronting or distressing.  We encourage you to please practice self‑care and take a break if you feel you need one.  Don’t be embarrassed to step out of the room if you feel that is necessary.  We will have counsellors available after this session if you feel like you’d like to speak to somebody this evening.  Ned Pankhurst will provide additional information how to seek that support at the end of the event.  So, without further ado, I would now like to hand you over to Kerry to begin the conversation.  Thank you.   

 Kerry O’Brien  

Thanks, Julianne.  I’m impressed that Julianne knew that I had had empathy training. 50 years of it actually as a journalist.  A little more than a few weeks.  I, too, would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land we are on and pay my respect to elders past, present and emerging.  Grace, I’ve interviewed many Australians of the Year, over the years, some of them enormously impressive with powerful stories of courage, inspiration and achievement to reflect on.  I know it shouldn’t be seen as a contest, but I’m compelled to say I’ve never seen one so warmly received or supported or celebrated as you have been.  So, I’d like to start this conversation with a simple expression of congratulations, which I’m sure is shared by everyone.  (Applause).  I know that you have been asked many times now to go back over the story of how you were groomed and repeatedly raped over 6 months as a vulnerable 15‑year‑old school girl by a figure of power and authority at your school. A senior teacher, of the price you’ve continued to pay over the intervening nine years and yet how you’ve fought back against the odds.  What I want to focus on tonight is the lessons you want us all to learn as parents, as children, as policymakers, as educators and people in positions of power and influence about why so many perpetrators get away with what they do and why so many lives are left shattered in the unsupported solitude of their silence and their misplaced shame. So, let’s work our way through this.  You’ve said that one of the toughest challenges in your recovery was to learn to speak about something unspeakable.  And when you did start to speak up, other survivors added their voices through the ‘Let Her Speak campaign’.  What were the common elements of these stories?  

 Grace Tame 

There’s a few.  The reason, the main reason why this issue of sexual abuse, especially prolonged sexual abuse, is so ubiquitous and has been for such a long time is because of silence.  And that’s a weapon that predators use; they know that because it is such an uncomfortable discussion, or it has been such an uncomfortable discussion for such a long time, that survivors are hesitant to speak. There is a lot of shame that one feels and the abuse itself is characterised by disempowerment.  You lose your ability to understand yourself because predators break that down. They break down your trust in humanity, and we haven’t been able to have these open, honest conversations as a result.   

 Kerry O’Brien 

 And I suppose age is a factor. The younger you are the more vulnerable you are, the more “timid” might not be the right word, but the more reluctant you are to actually speak up.   

 Grace Tame 

Yeah. When you are a child you have no frame of reference, you are so impressionable.  You know, you are taking your cues from those around you who are senior who have life experience that you don’t have.   

 Kerry O’Brien 

Of course long before your recovery, you had to actually acknowledge the crimes against you.  You talk now about the imperative of speaking up, of breaking the silence, but how hard was it to tell your parents? How hard to face your school? How hard to tell the police?   

 Grace Tame 

Oh, um, well, you know often I hear questions of “Why didn’t you say something at the time?”  or “Why didn’t you just say ‘No’?”  And I think that speaks to how little is understood about how terrifying predators are.  You know, I was completely, absolutely terrified of this man. But ultimately my fear was surpassed by rage. A rage that I didn’t actually quite understand.  And I actually didn’t know as a 16‑year‑old, because it was when I was 16 that I disclosed the abuse, I didn’t know as a 16‑year‑old what the recourse would be. I didn’t know what the judicial process would be. I just knew that this man who boasted to me about abusing other girls before he abused me, I knew this man was a risk to everyone.  And I’ve always wanted to protect others, put others at ease and educate others, and so that need was far greater than my terror.  And the first step was to turn to someone that I knew valued people above policies, individuals above institutions. So I turned to another male teacher actually, a proud gay man, by the name of Dr William Simon, who I just had dinner with last Friday, I turned to him and he knew what to do.  His first response was of implicit belief and support.   

 Kerry O’Brien 

Was he surprised about this man?   

 Grace Tame 

No.  No.   

 Kerry O’Brien 

Can we assume there were other victims?   

 Grace Tame 

Yes.  They have contacted me.  I have had contact from his victims.  

 Kerry O’Brien

So you went to the teacher that you trusted before you went to your parents?  

Grace Tame 

That’s right.   

Kerry O’Brien 

How did your parents react when you did talk to them?    

Grace Tame 

Oh, it is hard to, well, actually. So after I told this teacher, he set up a meeting with the school principal.  That was the next step.  And then the police were called to the school.  I had to give a brief summary of what had happened before I made an initial statement.  As a naive 16‑year‑old, as I said, with no concept of what the recourse would be, I just wanted to get this man out of the school.  That was my main priority.  I wanted to protect the other students at the school.  I remember looking the policeman in the eye and very earnestly saying, “Just don’t tell my mum and dad.”   

Kerry O’Brien 

So that was kind of your worst fear?   

Grace Tame 

I didn’t want to hurt them.  I didn’t want to hurt my mum and dad.  But, of course, my father then had to pick me up from school and the school informed him that something was amiss, and because ‑‑ well, to backtrack a little bit, before this man actually started abusing me, he started the grooming process which involved, at first, what I thought were innocent conversations in his office.  And because I was 15 at the time I had no ‑‑ there were no red flags that were raised for me by that.  I went home after the first conversation, in fact, and I told my parents that I had had that conversation.  And that raised red flags for them as adults.  They thought it was quite odd considering the fact that I shared. I had disclosed to him about my anorexia, because he asked questions about my anorexia. So, they found that very disconcerting.  And they actually had meetings with the school very early on, before the abuse started.  So, when I did tell my dad ‑‑ I actually remember the very moment driving over the Tasman Bridge.  If you’re familiar with Hobart at all it is separated by ‑‑ yep, so it is joined ‑‑ the two sides of Hobart are joined by a bridge, it has got five lanes.  And at different times of the day the middle lane actually changes over in accordance with the flow of traffic.  And so the middle lane is called the suicide lane.  And my ‑‑ it is not funny, but ‑‑  

Kerry O’Brien 

I’ve got the picture.   

Grace Tame 

My Dad was driving back home, he was driving. We were driving in the suicide lane and ‑‑ can I swear?   

Kerry O’Brien 

Please.   

Grace Tame 

He took both of his hands off the steering wheel. I hadn’t said anything. He had just been obviously briefed very vaguely by the school.  I hadn’t said anything.  I was quiet.  I was terrified.  I knew that he was angry.  I knew that he was upset, not necessarily at me, I just could tell he was disturbed.  And he took both of his hands off the steering wheel and he just screamed, “If this has anything to do with that fucking teacher!” And I just remember never seeing so much rage in him, because I then told him and my step‑mother that night.  And there were tears from all of us.  My father vomited.  And my mother had to hear the story the first time via a tiny little television at the police station in a separate room while I made my statement to the police a couple of days later.  That was her first hearing of the story.   

Kerry O’Brien 

And that’s the way it had to be?   

Grace Tame 

That’s the way that it had to be.  I mean, didn’t know.  Like I said, I had no concept of what was going on, really. I was taking cues from everybody around me.  

Kerry O’Brien 

You are determined that we should all understood the grooming process, the fundamental manifestation really of calculated evil.  I couldn’t think of a stronger way to put it.  That’s what it is, isn’t it, manifestation of calculated evil.    

Grace Tame 

It is.   

Kerry O’Brien 

I wonder how a parent or a school goes about educating a child on the practice of grooming?   

Grace Tame 

Look, it is a really complicated subject and that’s something that predators benefit from, or have benefitted from for such a long time because it is so hard to talk about and understand. But it can be broken down into six main phases, those being:  Targeting the individual. So targeting a vulnerable individual; and then gaining the individual’s trust to lull them into a false sense of security.  You know it is sort of played up as a friendship, if you will; and then there is filling a need. So identifying where the target has a gap in their support system and then pretending to be that type of support; and then there’s the isolating. Which is sort of happening all at the same time as these other things. It is driving wedges between the target and their actual genuine supporters; and then the fifth is the sexualisation. Which is happening concurrently, and that’s the gradual introduction of sexual content so as to normalise it, so it is not so shocking when it actually is introduced; and then there is maintaining control, which is striking a perfect balance between causing harm but being the provider of relief from that harm to condition you into a state of confusion and guilt at the thought of even questioning your abuser, let alone speaking out about them.  Now, those phases obviously can be elaborated.  I can speak more to those, but just that simple, I think, breakdown is a framework that could be talked about anywhere, tailored specifically to aged groups but I think that ‑‑ 

Kerry O’Brien 

Now, he had ‑‑ you had told him at a certain point in this grooming process, you’d confided in him that you had been sexually assaulted when you were 6 by an older boy?   

Grace Tame 

Yes.  An older male child.  That’s correct.   

Kerry O’brien 

And he actually revisited that with you, didn’t he?   

Grace Tame 

Yes, he re‑created that abuse.   

Kerry O’Brien 

As if it was a part of him helping you, some kind of process of trust involved?   

Grace Tame 

No, not so much, it was actually to ‑‑ it was actually to scare me into submission.  That was his way of introducing the abuse.  And I think there was another reason that he did that as well.  Now, this is not talked about often enough either, and that is that abusers often pick up where previous abusers have left off, because so much of the work, the psychological manipulation, has already been done for them.  The abuser picks people who have already been conditioned and primed and groomed.  And so that was a reason why he chose me. But also, by re‑creating the abuse that I suffered as a child it was almost an insurance policy that he took out, because it would have meant that when I disclosed the teacher’s abuse I would have had to have thrown somebody else under the bus as well.  

Kerry O’Brien 

In this context you’ve defined silence as the complete absence of truth. The deliberate suppression of information, a weapon of mass psychological destruction.  Those are very powerful images.   

Grace Tame 

Yeah.  Well, it is true, that’s what it is.  I mean history, lived experience, is our greatest learning resource, and when we erase that we’re erasing all the potential to move forward. So it is. That’s violence.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Which, of course, underscores how hard it must have been ultimately to break that silence.  You say it was rage that drove you, but to actually take that first step ‑‑ I’ve known ‑‑ and there can be a difference between feeling the anger of wanting to doing something, but then actually doing it, then actually acting on it.   

Grace Tame 

Yeah, well, my fear of doing nothing was far greater than my fear of doing something.  

Kerry O’Brien 

You were struggling with anorexia at the time.  How did the anorexia make you vulnerable particularly?  He knew, he clearly knew you were anorexic.  What was the vulnerability from the anorexia?   

Grace Tame 

That’s manifold.  I’m a perfectionist to a fault.  I’m very hard on myself.  But also, you know, as a 15‑year‑old with a changing body shape that, you know, that’s an insecurity that every 15‑year‑old whether you’re a boy or a girl, you know, can relate to.  In my case, you know the anorexia, was, like, it had many layers.  It was a product of being abused as a child, and having, you know ‑‑ and how that made me feel about my body.  I’m also high‑functioning autistic and, as such, you know, I like to order and sort of arrange things and, you know, have control in that kind of way.  And often as we know obsessions can start out as just sort of a little thing, but then insidiously grow into something much bigger until we, you know, are completely overtaken by it.   

Kerry O’Brien 

So did the autism add to your vulnerability, or has it in some way since been an asset?   

Grace Tame 

Well, I think both.  So I ‑‑ one of the things that I really struggle with is picking up on ulterior motives, so it makes me quite susceptible to manipulation.  I don’t know when people have hidden agendas.  I take everything very literally and at face value.  But it has also been a source of great strength because I have been able to channel the, you know, the hyper focus into this movement, for instance, wanting to educate others.  And I just don’t give up when I pick something.  I just don’t stop.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Well, we know that.  (Laughs).  And you’ll need that.  But you’ve talked a lot about shame as well. Shame is very much a part about all this. So, at what point did shame creep in for you, and did shame take over at any point?  I mean the sense of shame you had about it all?   

Grace Tame 

Oh, that’s such a hard question to answer because it is ‑‑ shame sort of ebbs and flows, I suppose, and this journey of recovery has not been very linear.  And certainly, at times I have been overtaken by shame and I’ve completely just ‑‑ um, you know there was a time, especially when I lived in America, and I had no self‑respect, you know. I’ve used prescription drugs, I’ve used illicit drugs, I cut myself, I engaged in other methods of self‑harm because I just didn’t see any value in myself.  I had a death wish.  I was in a lot of very, very dangerous situations.  I don’t need to go into great detail, but I was in a lot of very dangerous situations with very dangerous people, and I did not care if I died.   

Kerry O’Brien 

And this sheeted back to these months of abuse?   

Grace Tame 

Yeah, yeah, because that’s what predators do. They instil in you very subtly a self‑hatred. Because by confusing you with this maintaining control aspect they make you think that you were responsible and that you’ve somehow done something to invite this evil and, you know, you deserve it.  And that’s what you come to believe, you come to believe that you deserve all of the pain that comes your way.  So then subconsciously you actually become to tolerate and to expect it.  Often people who have been abused unconsciously find themselves in situations with the same patterns of abuse, the same patterns of violence because that is what they know.    

Kerry O’Brien 

So when you had to go through this chain of processes once you went to the school, went to your parents, and the police and so on, I was going to ask you what happened to the shame through that process. Whether you actually lost the shame? Whether it was a sense of great relief when you actually did finally go for broke with it, but you’ve made clear that the shame didn’t go away.   

Grace Tame 

No.   

Kerry O’Brien 

But was there any sense of relief for having basically bitten the bullet?   

Grace Tame

Oh, most certainly.   

Kerry O’Brien 

I mean I’m asking this, I suppose, for future value, if you like, for other people who might be in your situation and actually want to have some sense of what is actually at stake if they actually do find the courage to come out themselves. And for others to understand what it is like for the survivor.    

Grace Tame 

Yeah.  Well, look, the shame sadly doesn’t go away, you know, and I have to be honest, you know, doing a lot of these events and dealing with this subject matter and having it constantly at the forefront of my brain, you know, because that comes from ‑‑ that trauma is not logical. So even though I understand that I’m not back in that time, I’m not being abused, that shame state that I feel in my body at a cellular level, that can still be triggered and that’s the case for any survivor. As any survivor would know, that, you can fully understand, you can fully be aware, your eyes are open, but you feel like you’re back there.  So that doesn’t go away.  You can learn to manage it.  But through, to answer the second part of your question about what happens when you speak out, that’s when you can start to heal. Because that’s all we really are looking for. All we really need as human‑beings is connection with other people.    

Kerry O’Brien 

Yeah.  

Grace Tame 

Even if you don’t go to the step of, you know, pursuing it in the justice system, reporting to police, or even reporting to, you know, the institution, even if it is just with a friend or family member who you feel safe with, or a professional therapist, even if it is just that, and it is in complete confidence, that is so freeing.   

Kerry O’Brien 

I’ve thought about shame in relation to colonial Australian history and what the colonialists, what my ancestors and the ancestors of many other Australians, inflicted on Indigenous Australians for well over a century and, in many ways, systemically still are.   

Grace Tame 

Still, yeah.  

Kerry O’Brien 

And it seemed to me guilt wasn’t the issue.  There were those who didn’t want to confront these truths who said, you know, it was ‑‑ they were claiming this was about the kind of guilt industry.  They were putting guilt on future generations.  It is not that.  That’s bullshit.  But I do think we can and should feel a sense of shame for what happened.  And yet the people who have been made to wear the shame have been the victims and the targets. It has been the Indigenous Australians and the generations of Indigenous Australians since who still bear the load of what happened then.  

Grace Tame 

That’s indicative of a guilty conscious.   

Kerry O’Brien 

And this is what we’re talking about here.   

Grace Tame 

Yeah.  

Kerry O’Brien 

In other words, the victims walk away with the shame, less so the perpetrator.  

Grace Tame 

It is funny, when somebody is murdered and the police arrive on the scene, they don’t start questioning the murder victim, “What were you doing to get murdered?”  You know, it is odd.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Yeah.  A bit hard.  

Grace Tame 

Yeah, a bit hard.   

Kerry O’Brien 

What decided you to go to America for further education?  Was that about ‑‑ was that distancing yourself from childhood trauma?   

Grace Tame 

Yes, that definitely was.  Distancing myself physically from the constant triggers and the environment.  Where I come from, Hobart is a small town, you know. Just driving past the school, and things like that.  Unnecessary revisiting constantly.  I just needed some space from it.  It wasn’t so much a running away, as a taking a break.    

Kerry O’Brien 

So, you have told us about the pain that stayed with you over there, but you also did some things, didn’t you.  You went over there, you went to ‑‑ you furthered your education there.   

Grace Tame 

Yeah.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Tell me about the good bits of being there. What did you achieve and was it a part of setting yourself up for your future life, for a career?   

Grace Tame  

I don’t know.  I sort of went over there. I studied for a couple of years just at a community college in a lovely little town called Santa Barbara which is about 90 minutes north of Los Angeles.  And I studied liberal arts and theatre arts and film.  And I was doing that for a couple of years.  And in my last semester ‑‑ I always drew just as a hobby.  And I went down to Los Angeles and I went to an art gallery and took a picture outside the art gallery and tagged the art gallery on my Instagram.  And the gallery owner then went through my Instagram and saw that I had done some sketches and he asked me if I wanted do an art show in his gallery.  And so, I ended up doing that.  I pulled a collection of some of my drawings.  From there I got asked to illustrate a column for an online magazine for a little while.  I did some sort of social commentary illustrations.  Then I ended up doing some work for some other high profile clients in LA.  Yeah, I also became a yoga teacher.  I studied yoga.  But the best part, like, the best part in life in general is the friendships that I made while I was over there, you know, and that’s where some of the healing started. Because I was able to talk about my experience on my own terms.  You know, there were no received ideas that people had because they had heard rumours.  You know, they weren’t from my home town.  So, I was able to connect with people.  And through sharing my story I realised, because when you make that first move often you realise, actually, the other person that you are speaking to has their own story.  Whether it is the same story of sexual abuse or not, or just some sort of similar story of oppression or struggle of some kind, you know, that’s where you start to find, you just tap into that humanity.  That’s always there.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Yeah.  

Garce Tame 

You just break the ice.  

Kerry O’Brien 

Coming ‑‑ so it was out of that really you came back here and you really went to town, you know. You opened up.  This was the campaign.   

Grace Tame 

Yes.   

Kerry O’Brien 

This was 2017 and on from there.  So, did that give you a sense of empowerment?    

Grace Tame 

Yeah.     

Kerry O’Brien 

Was it hard?   

Grace Tame 

Oh, it was very hard.  It wasn’t an easy road.  I mean, I have no background in law. So I didn’t really know what we were getting into.  It was Nina Funnell, the incredible Nina Funnell who was mentioned earlier, who dreamed up this campaign.  And I just lent my story as a starting point.  And that became the catalyst.  And actually, other campaign survivors joined onboard.  But there was lots of roadblocks along the way, lots of loopholes, you know, lots of red tape that we had to wade through.  But it was so worth it because it wasn’t just ‑‑  

Kerry O’Brien 

It seems incredible that you’re in a situation where you couldn’t tell your story, but your perpetrator could.   

Grace Tame 

Yeah, and that’s an example of cultures that enable predatory behaviour.  Mmm.   

Kerry O’Brien 

So, coming to Australia Day, nothing is short of stunning.  Our various elements have come together since that day and since that speech of yours in acceptance. Since you electrified Australia to create a perfect storm over the mistreatment of women.  It was interesting to see the four winners that night, all women of different backgrounds, ages and experiences, each speaking about the previously unspeakable.  And what has followed is a plethora of stories of sexual assault, harassment, domestic violence, the worst kinds of gender exploitation, the offensive male chauvinism of authority figures like Senator Abetz.  And Chanel Cantos’ harrowing survey of private secondary school girls in Sydney.  How are you processing all that, because the stories just keep coming?  And it is an extraordinary kind of confluence of things.    

Grace Tame 

Yeah, it is, but the common thread is abusive power, and I ‑‑ although it is shocking, having lived that for such a long time, you know it is 11 years next month, since the grooming started ‑‑  

Kerry O’Brien 

Wow.   

Grace Tame 

  ‑‑ having lived that and seeing the potential for, you know, corruption, seeing the potential for evil that, you know, fortunately is in the minority of human‑beings, I have not been surprised by this sort of huge surge in intention.   

Kerry O’Brien 

How did you personally react, just privately, inside yourself, when Brittany Higgins came forward with her own rape allegation from within the national parliament. Particularly knowing that you had inspired her to go public?    

Grace Tame 

Privately, I mean, from survivor to survivor, you know, heart was just completely shattered. Because it is never easy to hear that that is somebody’s experience.  And although our experiences are different in a lot of ways, you know, it is that same oppression, that same abuse of power being manipulated, being exploited, but then to find out that, you know, that my story had inspired her was incredibly hopeful, because we all have that potential.  You know it doesn’t have to be this grand of a scale, just if you tell one of your friends, like I was saying before, you can be a little domino, if you will.  That’s what I like to encourage people, to think of themselves as in the pursuit of creating change.  You know, it is not an isolated gesture, just a single smile or a single signature on a petition or a dollar donation. It is the catalytic potential that has to then inspire somebody else to do it and then it becomes, like you said, electrifying, like an unbroken current of electricity.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Tell me about the 19 dominos.  

Grace Tame 

We were talking about this before.  There is a video I think on YouTube that you can find of 19 dominos.  The first domino is the size of about 2 inches high of a standard domino, but then the next domino after that is twice the size of that, and so on, and the 19th domino is the size of the Empire State Building.  So, if you can imagine that.  And all you have to do is tap that domino, and boing.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Yes, I love the concept.  I love the image.  I am not sure it is quite that simple ‑‑   

Grace Tame 

No.   

Kerry O’Brien 

‑‑ but nonetheless I love the idea.  Brittany Higgins has found herself in the eye of her own storm at the heart of the most dynamic and unpredictable power structure in the country, which she seems to be handling with great coolness I might say but it must be incredibly confronting for her, and in ways she could not foresee.  Do you feel you have advice and support to offer for those who are inspired by you and decide to put themselves in the spotlight. Because they won’t necessarily know how it is going to transpire for them?    

Grace Tame 

Do it on your own terms, first and foremost.  Nobody can tell you how to tell your story.  But if that is something that you feel that you need to do, or want to do, lean into the love that’s around you. That is the greatest source of power there is.   

Kerry O’Brien 

And your family, you’re close‑knit family and friends have been your real base, haven’t they? 

Grace Tame 

 Always.  Yes.  In fact, my partner, Max is over there in the audience.  I can see him.  (Applause).  I shouldn’t have exposed him.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Sorry, Max.  (Laughs). I know you’ve been asked a question along these lines before, and it is a loaded question, and an important question: what about the girls and women who aren’t equipped to break the silence and deal with the fallout or don’t have the loving and trusting support of parents and friends, or who are even more vulnerable through systemic disadvantage?   

Grace Tame 

Look, that’s all the more reason why we as a society and especially those of us who are, you know, privileged and who have the resources to continue this fight, to create community attitudes of support so that even if you do feel isolated as an individual, you have the comfort of a community that accepts you and your story.   

Kerry O’Brien 

The issue of consent I know is another really important one through this whole kind of area.  And Chanel Contos’ survey certainly brought that issue into sharp focus. Particularly for schoolgirls, and in many of the stories that they came forward and told through that survey and mechanism, talked about how they were drunk, and when they were assaulted, often not knowing they had been assaulted until they saw a sign of that assault when they woke up, came to, or even the next day.  But of course, the consent issue is a society‑wide question: how should that be resolved?  Is it as simple as better education?  When we’re looking to comfort ourselves with things and we are looking for solutions, one of the easy ones, in a way, is to say education.  The difficulty is delivering it.   

Grace Tame 

Yes.  And actually, we have eight different jurisdictions, and in each of those jurisdictions the legal definition of “consent” is different.  And “consent” is an absolute concept, right, so it is not necessarily that one definition is better than the other. It is the fact there are eight of them.  And like we saw in the US with the different responses to COVID from state to state, when you have that kind of inconsistency, that kind of ambiguity, it undermines your ability to understand it and, therefore, take it seriously and, therefore, educate around it properly.  

Kerry O’Brien 

And one of the unfortunate truths about Australia as a federation is it can sometimes take 25 years to get the states to agree on a particular reform.  

Grace Tame 

That’s right.  

Kerry O’Brien 

Even a reform that’s not necessarily complicated.  That’s also a part of it.   

Grace Tame 

That’s why we have to be relentless in our lobbying.   

Kerry O’Brien 

So how tough is your thinking about “consent”?  What is your own view of what “consent?” How you define “consent”?   

Grace Tame 

It is a “Yes” or “No”.  I think it is actually quite simple.  It doesn’t need to be ambiguous.  

Kerry O’Brien 

And it is not necessarily a “Yes” at the beginning of something, is it.  Staying “Yes” at the start of an exercise of intimacy, let’s say, or some element of sex, saying “Yes” at the start of something doesn’t mean “Yes” all the way through and it develops into something else.  

Grace Tame 

Yes.  And the moment “No” is communicated, that’s it.   

Kerry O’Brien 

It should be fairly simple to enshrine, shouldn’t it. Not necessarily with an app.   

Grace Tame 

No, no, not with an app.   

Kerry O’Brien 

But nonetheless. So, when you talk about education on such deep‑seated cultural issues, who do we target?    

Grace Tame 

Can you ask the whole question again?   

Kerry O’Brien 

When you talk about education on such deep‑seated cultural issues, as the ones we’re dealing with here, who do we target?  Do we start with the educators, and the parents of course are at the heart of the education process, I would have thought?   

Grace Tame 

I think it starts at the top though.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Go on.  (Applause).   

Grace Tame 

Well, funny you should say that, because, of course, many professions require constant professional development as they go through their years of process just to stay in touch with the updates on what they already know.  In some instances, with politicians, we’re talking about things they don’t know to start with ‑‑   

Grace Tame 

Exactly.   

Kerry O’Brien 

‑‑ in some instances.  So can you see a reason why our politicians shouldn’t have professional development ‑‑ 

Grace Tame 

No, I think that’s ‑‑   

Kerry O’Brien 

‑‑ on a regular basis, not just on empathy?   

Grace Tame 

I think you made an incredible point there Kerry and I agree with you wholeheartedly.  

Kerry O’Brien 

So, for instance, there could be some professional development on Indigenous history?  

Grace Tame 

Amen.  (Applause).  

Kerry O’Brien 

There could be professional development on basic civility?   

Grace Tame 

Yeah.   

Kerry O’Brien 

We could go on.   

Grace Tame 

Yeah.  Basic human decency, yeah.   

Kerry O’Brien 

But it is an important and interesting point, isn’t it, that a lawyer wants and needs to stay in touch with all the new case law and new precedents in judgments and so on.  Doctors are constantly having to have professional development.  And psychiatrists, psychologists, counsellors, any number of professionals.  Electricians.   

Grace Tame 

Society is constantly evolving, so those who govern it should be too.   

Kerry O’Brien 

It is Kate Ellis who has just brought this book out, saying that it was only after she got out of parliament how caught in a type warp the parliament was and the way they dealt with each other and the way they dealt with staff.  It is fascinating but staggering.   

Grace Tame 

Laws and policies are made by those who benefit most from them.  (Applause).  

Kerry O’Brien 

An Australian academic named Gemma Carey is another survivor who has just brought out a book called ‘No Matter Our Wreckage.’  She says it took her 20 years to realise it wasn’t her fault.  “Survivors like me are all around you” ‑ and this really resonated with me ‑ “Survivors like me are all around you, but we’ve learnt that people don’t want to hear our stories.”  Which goes to the silence again.  So how do you compel people to listen in a sustained way because, as you say, listening is crucial?   

Grace Tame 

Well, I think that is, in part, true, but it is also, in part not true.  Um, because to say that would be to discredit the people, at least in my experience, who have listened from day one.  And it is ‑‑ what it is, it’s about normalising this conversation and breaking down the discomfort, and doing it a little bit at a time, and being patient and compassionate.  These aren’t explosive revelations, I don’t think, these are just common-sense ideas.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Through your own personal experience when you did present to the police and then subsequently there was the whole justice system at work, this guy goes to jail, he comes out again, he re‑offends, he goes back, but you’re still basically a kid through this process.  What did you ‑‑  

Grace Tame 

I still am now.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Perhaps in some ways.  What did you learn about the justice system in practice?   

Grace Tame 

Oh, that it does in so many ways, in so many subtle ways, enable abusive behaviour by protecting ‑‑ disproportionately protecting perpetrators, as opposed to victims.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Because the other side of the coin is that the concept of innocent until proven guilty is one of the absolute underpinnings of a fair justice system.  There’s been a sudden fondness for talking up the importance of the rule of law, and the rule of law of course is important, but there are various definitions of what that actually means.  But that is at the centre of it, isn’t it, that the defendant in a case has to be given the benefit of the doubt unless it can be clearly proven otherwise.  So, there is to be a process has that to be conducted.  

Grace Tame 

Yeah, I think part of the problem is that, like I’ve said time and time again, so little is understood and so little weight is put on the psychological manipulation that underpins the sex crimes, the physical acts.  And once we develop more understanding around that, I think we can more adequately, you know, restructure our legal system accordingly.   

Kerry O’Brien 

How far below what it should be do you think the legal system is in terms of its treatment and understanding of victims, of the survivors and of their voice, of the importance of them getting a voice and being properly heard?   

Grace Tame  

I don’t know how far below, but we’ve got a long way to go.  That’s all I know.  Got a long way to go.   

Kerry O’Brien 

And that is a part of your campaign?   

Grace Tame 

Most certainly.  We can always be improving and redefining structures in society.  Nothing is fixed.  

Kerry O’Brien 

You’ve told the Press Club that you feel we are now on the precipice of a revolution. But are we really? Revolutions are lit by a spark, but successful ones usually require planning and structure and persistence, not just the most righteous of anger, no matter how dynamically articulated in the marketplace. So how will this revolution be sustained?   

Grace Tame 

It is actually quite simple.  It is by continuing the conversation.  There’s a danger when rage is not harnessed and converted into something positive, because what can happen is we sort of tire ourselves out and then retreat back into silence.  So, it is about acknowledging the rage, but then moving to the next step, to action, no matter how small those actions are.  I’ll come back to the domino thing again. It is taking those little steps and just making them consistent. It is about being consistent. Not necessarily overblown, it is about being consistent, relentless.   

Kerry O’Brien 

At the Press Club you took journalists to task ‑ quite rightly I thought ‑ for the way my industry will sometimes pick the flesh off the bones of the survivors of tragedy to milk the story for what they might see as its full potential.  Have you noticed any greater sensitivity in the way the rash of stories have been reported in the weeks since you said that?   

Grace Tame 

Um, yes and no.  I think some of them weren’t listening.  But certainly, in the immediate, sort of, when the journalists were then asked to come forward with their questions for me, you could see it in their faces they were quite stunned that they had been called out.  Because this isn’t about survivors being sensitive at all, or anyone being sensitive, it is about ‑‑  

Kerry O’Brien 

You did have a right to be sensitive by the way, but go on.  

Grace Tame  

Yes, but it is more about, you know, anyone who has a story that they’re offering for the benefit of the public, their experience is imbued with educative insights that can help us progress.  So, it is not about not just asking what happened to you. It is about asking what can we learn from what happened to you?  So, making the focus always about the gory details.  That’s just exploitation.  That’s commodification of pain.  (Applause).  

Kerry O’Brien 

Yeah.  

Grace Tame 

It is not constructive.  

Kerry O’Brien 

No.   

Grace Tame  

It is not helpful, you know.  I’m not ‑‑ I personally am not easily offended, but there’s no need of digging up all this trauma that just takes me back to a shame state that, you know, or that triggers other people into reliving their own pasts.  That doesn’t help anybody.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Have you noticed, I’m not being mischievous here to some of my colleagues, but have you noticed the difference between the way male and female journalists approach you?   

Grace Tame  

No, not really, I don’t think it is a gendered issue, no.   

Kerry O’Brien 

No, well, I’ve seen people of both genders as almost predators themselves in my trade.   

Grace Tame  

This isn’t a gendered issue.  

Kerry O’Brien 

Empathy is not a gendered issue, is it.  

Grace Tame  

No.  This isn’t a gendered issue at all.  I have to say, when I was pursuing my voice, you know, some of the survivors that I connected with and who are now some of my best friends are male survivors of clergy abuse, middle‑aged men.  You know and ‑‑  

Kerry O’Brien 

It is one of the anomalies of the whole trying to understand the story of pedophilia.  I’m sure to this day there are still many people who have the false impression that most of the predatory behaviour of paedophiles is directed to young boys.  In fact, the vast bulk of it is directed at young girls.  That’s one of the misnomers of the whole thing.  Perhaps the most special thing, unique really I thought, about the Australia Day presentation was to see, as I said before, four such remarkable women being recognised together for outstanding achievement in the face of great adversity and the diversity amongst those women.  I thought Miriam Rose might have particularly resonated with you, drawing on ancient Aboriginal philosophy to highlight the power of active listening to right old wrongs.  

Grace Tame  

That’s right.  Like I said before, history is our greatest learning resource.  As uncomfortable as it might be, it is from that suffering that we can learn and move forward so that we don’t make the same mistakes again.  

Kerry O’Brien 

Did you have a sense that Scott Morrison was moved by what you had to say?   

Grace Tame 

Moved in what direction?  I don’t know.  (Applause).  

Kerry O’Brien 

I know you have already been meeting with some state and federal government ministers and policymakers and I think you had a meeting with Scott Morrison. You had an exchange with Scott Morrison.   

Grace Tame  

I spoke to Scott Morrison.  I spoke at him, certainly.  Max and I on the 25th of January at the morning tea, I spoke directly of the need for a national taskforce, a permanent taskforce to deal with issues pertaining to sexual assault.  And he dismissively insisted that such infrastructure already exists and is functioning quite well.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Jee, January was a long time ago.   

Grace Tame 

Such a long time ago, Kerry.   

Kerry O’Brien 

But when you have sat down with the state and federal ministers and the policymakers, how seriously do you think you have been taken?  Are you really being listened to, and forgive me for a small flesh of cynicism here if some of them have been more interested in simply being able to say they had actually spoken to you? 

Grace Tame 

Oh definitely. 

Kerry O’Brien 

We have got to have some hope that you are going to be listened to.  

Grace Tame 

I have spoken to a lot and am going to be speaking with a lot more.  And I, look, I treat everybody, regardless whether they are the Prime Minister, or whoever they are, we’re all people, right, and I treat everyone ‑‑  

Kerry O’Brien 

Some of us are more people than others, but go on.   

Grace Tame 

Some of us need more empathy training than others. But I do, I treat everyone on a case‑by‑case basis.  And I have spoken to a lot of people who I do feel are genuinely interested in this, in pursuing this, at both the state and federal level. Others are just saying what they think needs to be said because it is convenient for them.  And I’m not going to name names.  I don’t need to.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Are you impressed by the flurry of activity in Canberra this week, more women in cabinet, lots of promises to address the wrongs?   

Grace Tame 

Look, I think it is really important to remain hopeful, but at the same time we need to be careful not to be naively misled by actions that are quite calculated distractions posing as solutions.  (Applause).  This is not really a gendered issue.  There is an imbalance.  Women are worse off.  But, you know, equal representation is not going to address the abuse of power that is at the heart of this.  (Applause).  It is what it is, abuse of power.  And in fact, the new Assistant Minister for Women supported a fake rape crisis tour aimed at falsifying all counts of sexual abuse on campuses across the nation.  And needless to say, that came at a great expense to student survivors who are already traumatised.  And the same new Assistant Minister supported a woman who was honoured last year at the Australia Day honours. A woman who gave a platform to the paedophile who abused me, who sat and laughed with this paedophile while they discussed crimes against children, including rape and possession of child pornography.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Mmm.   

Grace Tame  

And that, that’s a woman who’s been put into a position of great power. She’s been given this new portfolio.   

Kerry O’Brien

The thing is that what we’re talking about, the crimes against women and girls, one of the big questions it seems to me is whether it is the symptoms of the disease that dominate, or the disease itself, and we’re trying to work out solutions.  It is about trying to define what the disease is, or what the illness is to treat, isn’t it?  I mean, how do you define it?  What is at the core here?  You’ve talked about abuse of power.  Is that what is at the core?  

Grace Tame  

Yes.  

Kerry O’Brien 

So, the places to address that abuse of power, one would assume, are in the bodies that make the laws. That is the parliaments. In the institutions that police the laws, and that is the police, and those who rule on the law, which is the justice system. So how will you measure change in police practice and the courts?   

Grace Tame 

Oh, that’s a ‑‑  

Kerry O’Brien 

Because it is one thing to be out there trying to maintain the rage and maintain the focus and to keep the voices going and to keep the impetus going, but you do need to be pausing every now and then to see whether you’re actually making progress, don’t you.  So how will you judge that?  How will you measure change?   

Grace Tame  

That’s really hard to say.  But, you know, we’ve already seen at least on a small scale, you know, in Tasmania, we campaigned to change the law and we succeeded.  And we just have to keep going.  

Kerry O’Brien 

And that has snowballed to other states.  

Grace Tame  

Has snowballed to other states as well.  And that’s what happens.  Sometimes, I think, you know, even when outcomes are not clearly defined the most important thing is in unifying, in coming together, because that in and of itself is an outcome.  

Kerry O’Brien 

Because police culture is a tough one to crack.  

Grace Tame 

It is.  

Kerry O’Brien 

I think we can reasonably assume there is an awful lot of decent policemen. But just the way the system functions, resourcing, education of police, all of those things, and then lawyers, and judges who have been lawyers, these are tough nuts to crack.   

Grace Tame  

Yeah, and I think that we have to ‑‑ I mean we have to accept this is a marathon.  

Kerry O’Brien 

You do marathons, don’t you?   

Grace Tame 

Yes, I do.   

Kerry O’Brien 

So, you know what you’re talking about.  

Grace Tame 

Sort of.

Kerry O’Brien

Rosie Batty used her time as Australian of the Year to continue her campaign against domestic violence.  And she’s been an absolute stand out, too.  She gave 250 speeches through that year without a great deal of structured support for what she’d taken on.  She said she was trolled within an inch of her life and worries whether you’ll have enough support in taking on one of society’s most confronting issues, which I’m sure will bring the uglies out at some point, if it hasn’t already. 

Grace Tame  

Oh definitely.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Are you prepared for that and has it already started?   

Grace Tame 

Yeah.  I mean, I was abused by a paedophile.  Nothing is worse than that.   

Kerry O’Brien 

But I mean since you’ve gone public.  

Grace tame 

Yeah.  

Kerry O’Brien 

So, you can cop it all because that was as bad as it gets?   

Grace Tame 

Yeah.  It doesn’t ‑‑ it never, never, never measures up to the love that’s out there.  It just never does.  (Applause).  

Kerry O’Brien 

The trolling and the ugliness.  No.  What have you learnt about yourself through this highly intense emotional rollercoaster?   

Grace Tame 

I have a lot of resilience.  Um, I don’t know.  I’m just a human‑being like everybody else.  I think it is definitely, yeah ‑‑ it has ‑‑ oddly it has grounded me.   

Kerry O’Brien 

 Right.   

Grace Tame  

Yeah.   

Kerry O’Brien 

That’s interesting.   

Grace Tame  

Yeah. 

Kerry O’Brien  

Why do you think that is?   

Grace Tame 

I don’t know.   

Kerry O’Brien 

How do you define that grounding?   

Grace Tame  

It has given me a huge wealth of life experience on which to draw, you know, perspective and a sense of proportion in life of what really is important and what isn’t.  And the most important thing is love, connection with family.  It is all quite simple really.  

Kerry O’Brien  

Well, in a way you’ve answered my next question but I’m going to ask it anyway: fame and celebrity can be destructive forces and the sudden exposure can be overwhelming, and although you had some build up to it the exposure of the past couple of months has been extraordinary and it is going to continue.  I’m not sure how you prepare yourself for that when you are not expecting it. So ,my sort of punch line for this one is how are you keeping yourself centred and you’ve answered it.  

Grace Tame  

He’s sitting over there.   

Kerry O’Brien 

Well, there’s a lot on his shoulders, too, then. What has the trauma inflicted on you at 15 cost you in the long‑term, and is it truly with you for life?  Can you shed it?   

Grace Tame  

It is. It is really with you for life.  And I think I joked with you before I liken trauma to being like a psychological cold sore; it is always there.  You know, it can lie dormant for a long time, years even, but it can be triggered at any given moment, even if you are taking active measures to be healthy and keep it at bay.  Yes, it is always with you, but that’s not necessarily a negative thing.  It doesn’t define you either.  It is just a part of you.  Yeah, that’s the answer.   

Kerry O’Brien 

And you just got to hack it?   

Grace Tame 

Hack it, yes.   

Kerry O’Brien 

I’m going to end with a quote and it is your quote: “It is so powerful and empowering to be respected and honoured as a survivor.  I’m filled with hope.  You don’t have to be defined by the experience in a negative way, you can be shaped by it in a positive way.  Survivors can see the light.”  Just flesh that out for me a little, just a little.  

Grace Tame  

Well, it is sort of like I was saying before, you don’t have to be defined by it, but as a source of great strength, you know like I was saying before. Having gone through that horrible negative experience has, you know, hardened me in a way.  You know, there’s nothing, I doubt, obviously never say never, but I doubt I will ever be confronted or, you know, have to deal with that level of evil ever again in my life.  And if I do, I can draw on that experience.  And it has also been a source of great connection with fellow survivors.  And that’s a strength in and of itself, that bonding.  It is, it has taught me so many lessons about humanity, about the world.  And it is, it has been a beautiful thing to be able to ‑‑ it is a privilege to be able to teach other people, and so I am in a lot of ways very grateful for having that experience that’s opened up my world in that way.  

Kerry O’Brien  

Grace Tame thank you very much for sharing your story with us.  (Applause).   

Ned Pankhurst 

Thank you.  My name is Ned Pankhurst and I’m Chair of the Board of the Home of the Arts, and it is my pleasure to offer a vote of thanks. Although I think you’ve already stolen the thunder.  Normally I wouldn’t be doing this, this is a duty that our CEO, Criena Gehrke, would be normally undertaking, but she unfortunately has been in Brisbane, like a number of people who couldn’t attend tonight, so she sends her apologies. So, the duty has fallen to me, which I’m happy to perform.  And I think you would all agree that we’ve heard a presentation tonight from Grace that shows great bravery, great candour, is extremely powerful, but I think the thing that struck me as much as anything, Grace, is the exquisite clarity that you bring to the issues and how you make it so easy for us ‑ (Applause) ‑ to understand what is important and what’s not important.  And I think that’s going to be incredibly critical as the conversation unfolds.  We’re also appreciate and are humbled by the fact that it is a very personal story that you bring to us, but I think we also have equal clarity of how important it is that you have done that, and we thank you for that. So, to both Grace and to Kerry, it has been a privilege to hear the conversation tonight and we thank you very much for sharing that with us.  And we’re absolutely delighted that you have been able to share the time with Griffith and HOTA in the conversation series. So, thank you very much, indeed.  (Applause).  As Julianne mentioned at the initiation event tonight, counsellors will be available in the Panorama Room and the Basement post event.  Please speak to a member of our front of house staff if you would like to be directed to those rooms.  Finally, the next talk in our ‘Better Future For All’ series will take place here on 29th of April with Professor John Rasko, internationally‑acclaimed leader in gene and stem cell therapies.  So again, thank you, Grace.  Thank you, Kerry.  Thank you, everyone, for coming tonight under difficult circumstances.  Good evening.